I realize and respect that this is the "Chatter" forum where no topic is off-limits, but I for one need to sit-out this thread... politics always leads to disagreement, and disagreement when connected to politics, religion, etc. often gets ugly. If someone wishes to battle-out the merits of Velveeta versus Tillamook Cheddar, I'm all for it! But other things? Naw- not for me. I respect you all too much to think my ideas on politics should outweigh yours. Enjoy the debate- and when you're ready I'll see ya'all back at the food-related threads! smiles & winks- K.
Hey CAG - You're right, politics, s.e.x and religion always lead to fights and arguments. But we (as a country) do need help! That much you must admit!
Catch ya on the flip side for the next debate!
Catch ya on the flip side for the next debate!
When folks fled their homeland years ago to start over and give freedom to "all", that in theory, was a good and evolutionary idea. At that time in world history, no one had done it that well, in that manner before- we were the model of liberty.
The problem was the folks who fled to new shores were mainly Puritans- or for lack of a better definition- those with narrow views and exclusionary ways.
America was a beacon of light for quite a while. But soon the rest of the world began to become intrigued by this idea of "freedom", too. They began to employ their own systems of liberty, and began to limit oppression and rule out exclusionary practices in their own nations. It wasn't long at all before many nations in the world caught up to us. And soon, nations were even surpassing us in the measure to which their generosity of freedoms were administered, and to whom.
Fast forward into the 20th & 21st centuries and this wonderful new revolutionary nation with freedoms and liberties for "all" became the laughing stock. Our reputation for denial of basic rights and eqaulities to many made us look like a nation of hypocrites. Over decades various populations of Americans have had to fight and argue to prove their worth; to force changes in practice and legislation simply to achive basic human rights.
While America is no North Korea, Cuba or Iran when it comes to the violence associated w/ denial of equality and rights- we still have ranked as low as they over recent decades with our practices of denial of rights to those of religious difference, women, blacks, non-Christians, and today with gays...
Today? There are groups that STILL in America are fighting to prove their worth and demand their equality. And although those very same PURITANS have really slowed down the progression of liberty and freedom, they are gradually losing. True freedom is slowly coming to all...
While many long for the nostalgia of "the good old days", others look back on the American past as an era when times were bad- times that should never, ever be repeated. And I happen to belong to a group of Americans who are still legally denied, repressed, oppressed and prevented from the basic human rights and equality that the Puritans have steadfastly kept so many from through generations of narrow-mindedness.
So, when infrequent random situations occur like a constitutional arms ruling gone awry- it's hard for me to directly identify with the tragedy of that, because I fight for the fair and even distribution of much more important very basic rights every single day.
Not a day goes by that I am not denied and kept from those same freedoms and liberties that all Americans are supposed to enjoy. I am disenchanted with and disenfrachised by the system, and the citizens & elected officials that perpetuate the inequality everyday- not just the day after unpopular Supreme Court decisions.
The problem was the folks who fled to new shores were mainly Puritans- or for lack of a better definition- those with narrow views and exclusionary ways.
America was a beacon of light for quite a while. But soon the rest of the world began to become intrigued by this idea of "freedom", too. They began to employ their own systems of liberty, and began to limit oppression and rule out exclusionary practices in their own nations. It wasn't long at all before many nations in the world caught up to us. And soon, nations were even surpassing us in the measure to which their generosity of freedoms were administered, and to whom.
Fast forward into the 20th & 21st centuries and this wonderful new revolutionary nation with freedoms and liberties for "all" became the laughing stock. Our reputation for denial of basic rights and eqaulities to many made us look like a nation of hypocrites. Over decades various populations of Americans have had to fight and argue to prove their worth; to force changes in practice and legislation simply to achive basic human rights.
While America is no North Korea, Cuba or Iran when it comes to the violence associated w/ denial of equality and rights- we still have ranked as low as they over recent decades with our practices of denial of rights to those of religious difference, women, blacks, non-Christians, and today with gays...
Today? There are groups that STILL in America are fighting to prove their worth and demand their equality. And although those very same PURITANS have really slowed down the progression of liberty and freedom, they are gradually losing. True freedom is slowly coming to all...
While many long for the nostalgia of "the good old days", others look back on the American past as an era when times were bad- times that should never, ever be repeated. And I happen to belong to a group of Americans who are still legally denied, repressed, oppressed and prevented from the basic human rights and equality that the Puritans have steadfastly kept so many from through generations of narrow-mindedness.
So, when infrequent random situations occur like a constitutional arms ruling gone awry- it's hard for me to directly identify with the tragedy of that, because I fight for the fair and even distribution of much more important very basic rights every single day.
Not a day goes by that I am not denied and kept from those same freedoms and liberties that all Americans are supposed to enjoy. I am disenchanted with and disenfrachised by the system, and the citizens & elected officials that perpetuate the inequality everyday- not just the day after unpopular Supreme Court decisions.
I don't get it, how are you oppressed, denied and disenfranchised again?
Edit....
Sorry, re-read your post again.. I am going to assume you mean your Gay, and the current Gay marriage issue is what you are talking about. Let me know if I am wrong, but your post seems to indicate it.
My view on that subject is basically that it is a non-issue. Gays for the most part cannot have a marriage that is acknowledged by the nation as a whole, as far as Governments are concerned (i.e. the state of Alabama) when marrying someone of the same sex.. One state may recognize a marriage, whereas another will not.
I am not sure how this is unequal with the "other" group: heterosexual. Heteros enjoy the same limitation where they cannot marry someone of the same sex either.
I have thought about this issue for some time because I have many friends and family who are gay and I try to put myself in their shoes and think about it. From what I have experienced in being around gay relationships is that they are a completely different dynamic than a hetero relationship. I think it is quite commonly accepted that it is rather a rude thing to ask a gay couple "Which one is the wife". Well, at least I think it is because although there may be one dominate partner, the relationship itself is just different than a man and a woman.
So looking at it from that perspective, I would assume that if I was gay, I would find it just as insulting if someone insinuated that my relationship with my partner would be considered a marriage. I would want it to be called something else distinct from marriage. Something that only same sex couples could enter into.
I mean, is the issue black and white like algebra? No, of course not. We are dealing with a deep cultural thing here.
Let us for arguments sake say that tomorrow, across the land, same sex marriage was recognized by law. Would then two brothers be able to marry? If not, why not? There would be no genetic dangers of procreation to warrant such a restriction, but yet, hetero's would then become "disenfranchised"..
What if me and my buddy wanted to get married even though we are not gay? Heck, if the benefits of marriage can be extended to same sex couples, I can guarantee that will happen. If I was working and had great health benefits and a buddy of mine was diagnosed with an illness that will kill him if he doesn't get treatment, and I was allowed to marry him and put him on my insurance, my nature would force me to. What then has it done to marriage?
In the end, my view is, as it stands now, Gay couples enjoy all the benefits of heteros couples. By law they can enter into legal agreements that are basically the same as marriage. Sure, it hasn't always been this way, yet Democracy is still a relatively new thing. Gays are organized now, and with that they have a chance to start something for themselves, so I do not understand this move to try and change all that they have worked for just to then assimilate into a hetero based philosophy. Surely there is a better solution, but either way, everyone has the same restriction on marriage be they gay or hetero.
Edit....
Sorry, re-read your post again.. I am going to assume you mean your Gay, and the current Gay marriage issue is what you are talking about. Let me know if I am wrong, but your post seems to indicate it.
My view on that subject is basically that it is a non-issue. Gays for the most part cannot have a marriage that is acknowledged by the nation as a whole, as far as Governments are concerned (i.e. the state of Alabama) when marrying someone of the same sex.. One state may recognize a marriage, whereas another will not.
I am not sure how this is unequal with the "other" group: heterosexual. Heteros enjoy the same limitation where they cannot marry someone of the same sex either.
I have thought about this issue for some time because I have many friends and family who are gay and I try to put myself in their shoes and think about it. From what I have experienced in being around gay relationships is that they are a completely different dynamic than a hetero relationship. I think it is quite commonly accepted that it is rather a rude thing to ask a gay couple "Which one is the wife". Well, at least I think it is because although there may be one dominate partner, the relationship itself is just different than a man and a woman.
So looking at it from that perspective, I would assume that if I was gay, I would find it just as insulting if someone insinuated that my relationship with my partner would be considered a marriage. I would want it to be called something else distinct from marriage. Something that only same sex couples could enter into.
I mean, is the issue black and white like algebra? No, of course not. We are dealing with a deep cultural thing here.
Let us for arguments sake say that tomorrow, across the land, same sex marriage was recognized by law. Would then two brothers be able to marry? If not, why not? There would be no genetic dangers of procreation to warrant such a restriction, but yet, hetero's would then become "disenfranchised"..
What if me and my buddy wanted to get married even though we are not gay? Heck, if the benefits of marriage can be extended to same sex couples, I can guarantee that will happen. If I was working and had great health benefits and a buddy of mine was diagnosed with an illness that will kill him if he doesn't get treatment, and I was allowed to marry him and put him on my insurance, my nature would force me to. What then has it done to marriage?
In the end, my view is, as it stands now, Gay couples enjoy all the benefits of heteros couples. By law they can enter into legal agreements that are basically the same as marriage. Sure, it hasn't always been this way, yet Democracy is still a relatively new thing. Gays are organized now, and with that they have a chance to start something for themselves, so I do not understand this move to try and change all that they have worked for just to then assimilate into a hetero based philosophy. Surely there is a better solution, but either way, everyone has the same restriction on marriage be they gay or hetero.
Very respectfully, Jafo-
I am a very private person. I offered the very limited things I did in my post earlier simply to vaguely illustrate my point as it pertained to my views about the recent Supreme Court decision reflected on by the original post.
I find much of what you wrote in your post to be insulting, but I do not take it personally for two reasons- 1.) we don't know one another and are not in one another's presence, so I don't feel it was necessarily directed at me individually, and 2.) because the view you offer is a wide-range view that is held by many- so it's hardly something I can just "blame you for".
Suffice it to say that I completely disagree with the views you expressed. But again, this isn't something I wish to argue- in fact, I come here for a certain amount of enjoyable escape- and I'm not willing to forfeit the fun I get from a place such as this by even discussing the gay issue. I don't engage in debate about gay equality, because even simply engaging in the banter indicates that the matter is debateable- and in my mind equality for gay Americans is most certainly NOT debateable.
Equality is coming- it will be here completely at some point. It is taking FAR too long- in fact it is embarrassing from the worldwide perspective just how long it is taking, but it will come. History shows us that the light of right almost always absorbs the darkness of wrong.
I am a very private person. I offered the very limited things I did in my post earlier simply to vaguely illustrate my point as it pertained to my views about the recent Supreme Court decision reflected on by the original post.
I find much of what you wrote in your post to be insulting, but I do not take it personally for two reasons- 1.) we don't know one another and are not in one another's presence, so I don't feel it was necessarily directed at me individually, and 2.) because the view you offer is a wide-range view that is held by many- so it's hardly something I can just "blame you for".
Suffice it to say that I completely disagree with the views you expressed. But again, this isn't something I wish to argue- in fact, I come here for a certain amount of enjoyable escape- and I'm not willing to forfeit the fun I get from a place such as this by even discussing the gay issue. I don't engage in debate about gay equality, because even simply engaging in the banter indicates that the matter is debateable- and in my mind equality for gay Americans is most certainly NOT debateable.
Equality is coming- it will be here completely at some point. It is taking FAR too long- in fact it is embarrassing from the worldwide perspective just how long it is taking, but it will come. History shows us that the light of right almost always absorbs the darkness of wrong.